Discussion:
Removing ARCNET stuffs
(too old to reply)
P***@Dell.com
2015-05-28 17:01:02 UTC
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Support for several legacy protocols was removed in recent years. I fear tha$
To an extent that's inevitable, because so much of the networking world
in general is becoming IP- and Ethernet-centric.
But I too find it regrettable and possibly dangerous. One of my
copious-spare-time projects is to dig up enough specs to add a DECnet
stack to my systems;
DECnet phase IV specs are readily available and good enough to build interoperable implementations (which isn’t true, unfortunately, for a lot of protocol specs). DECnet Phase IV (DECnet/OSI) specs also have been uncovered, though they are in more obscure spots. And DECnet nodes exist around the Internet; the “Hobbyist DECnet” group (“hecnet”) is the main focus of that activity as far as I know.

If you want pointers to documents, just ask, I can supply those.

paul


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Tyler Retzlaff
2015-05-29 00:57:11 UTC
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The same arguments might be made against the plan to remove ATM
support.
I've got no problem with keeping it, removing it isn't really
intellectually rewarding I thought it more of a cleanup/chore that
nobody really wanted to do. I only suggested removal because I know the
code is broken.

I guess we could at least make it compile again if we kept it and add it
to the ALL kernels. Is that enough? It's likely to still be broken and
difficult to efficiently fix without any hardware though.

I admit if I had en(4) hardware to test with I would have spent the
time. Maybe someone has this hardware?

rtr

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Johnny Billquist
2015-05-28 23:15:10 UTC
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Post by P***@Dell.com
And DECnet nodes exist around the Internet; the “Hobbyist DECnet”
group (“hecnet”) is the main focus of that activity as far as I know.
...and while I'm sure Johnny Billquist can supply more details, and
correct me if I'm wrong, DECnet on NetBSD seems to me to be an active
component of the hecnet environment.
Nope. NetBSD do not run DECnet. I run a bridge program, which I
initially developed on NetBSD, but it runs on pretty much anything.

I also hack NetBSD/VAX on and off, but it's becoming more and more "off"
with every new development within NetBSD. But that's a different story.

Oh, and DECnet on Linux is not so great either, and I believe it has
been dropped from the main tree.
But if anyone wants to try and get NetBSD to talk DECnet, Paul and me
can certainly help in many ways.

Johnny
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P***@Dell.com
2015-05-29 14:35:31 UTC
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...
I have a Phase IV+ (so I didn’t have to much with the physical address) implementation but never got around to writing the apps. socket interface is identical to DECnet-ULTRIX. DAP is a beast as is CTERM. I could run IP protocols over, but then I have IP for that. :)
If you say that you didn't fiddle with physical addresses, then you have been playing Phase V, as Phase IV requires that you manipulate the physical address. And that is also true of IV+.
Maybe Matt meant IV-prime? That’s an obscure variant of Phase IV invented to allow DECnet to run on 802.5 networks. I recently found a spec for it. It isn’t all that hard; the changes are just in the routing layer. And yes, it allows you to keep your physical address, so long as all the neighbors you need to talk to also run IV-prime.

Of course, if you have a LAN driver and interface that supports multiple individual addresses, you can use the HIORD style address for DECnet while keeping the conventional physical address for other protocols. Most hardware supports this, actually, though it’s not clear how many drivers do.
DAP would be really nice, but it's complex. But I like the capabilities.
I wouldn’t have thought of DAP as all that complex; after all it fits in PDP11 systems. You can probably subset it pretty nicely if you don’t need all the features. Just file transfer, as opposed to transparent file I/O, is likely to simplify things substantially. The DECnet/Linux implementation of DAP does this, I believe, and it does a reasonably good job. I think I even got it to talk successfully to a RSTS/E system at one time.

paul
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Johnny Billquist
2015-05-29 18:20:40 UTC
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Post by P***@Dell.com
...
I have a Phase IV+ (so I didn’t have to much with the physical address) implementation but never got around to writing the apps. socket interface is identical to DECnet-ULTRIX. DAP is a beast as is CTERM. I could run IP protocols over, but then I have IP for that. :)
If you say that you didn't fiddle with physical addresses, then you have been playing Phase V, as Phase IV requires that you manipulate the physical address. And that is also true of IV+.
Maybe Matt meant IV-prime? That’s an obscure variant of Phase IV invented to allow DECnet to run on 802.5 networks. I recently found a spec for it. It isn’t all that hard; the changes are just in the routing layer. And yes, it allows you to keep your physical address, so long as all the neighbors you need to talk to also run IV-prime.
I remember seeing some note about an update to Phase IV to allow
communication over 802.5 that would allow the interface to not have
DECnet-specific addresses, but I haven't actually seen any
implementation. But you could be right in that this is what Matt meant.
Post by P***@Dell.com
Of course, if you have a LAN driver and interface that supports multiple individual addresses, you can use the HIORD style address for DECnet while keeping the conventional physical address for other protocols. Most hardware supports this, actually, though it’s not clear how many drivers do.
DAP would be really nice, but it's complex. But I like the capabilities.
I wouldn’t have thought of DAP as all that complex; after all it fits in PDP11 systems. You can probably subset it pretty nicely if you don’t need all the features. Just file transfer, as opposed to transparent file I/O, is likely to simplify things substantially. The DECnet/Linux implementation of DAP does this, I believe, and it does a reasonably good job. I think I even got it to talk successfully to a RSTS/E system at one time.
I've never managed to get DAP under Linux to talk with an RSX node...
And I don't think you can subset it much. Depending on the remote
machine, different parts will be exercised. But I guess things like
indexing file access could be left out. But it's still rather more
complex than anything I've seen under Unix. But possibly various remote
db protocols would be similar.

File transfer and file access in DAP is the same thing, I believe. Or
maybe you mean this in some way I'm missing.

Johnny

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Johnny Billquist
2015-05-30 06:38:09 UTC
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No, transfering a whole file is a single stream of stuff; reading individual records is a more complex handshake. And apart from that, things get significantly simpler if you only support Sequential files. Simpler still if you limit it to just two cases: fixed:512, and stream.
Alas, that means most text files on VMS won’t be transferred since they are record based.
Same story with RSX, and even more so. And not just text files.
Can you get EDT or TPU to emit stream files?
Not in RSX, you can't...

Johnny
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P***@Dell.com
2015-05-29 20:31:37 UTC
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Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by P***@Dell.com
...
DAP would be really nice, but it's complex. But I like the capabilities.
I wouldn’t have thought of DAP as all that complex; after all it fits in PDP11 systems. You can probably subset it pretty nicely if you don’t need all the features. Just file transfer, as opposed to transparent file I/O, is likely to simplify things substantially. The DECnet/Linux implementation of DAP does this, I believe, and it does a reasonably good job. I think I even got it to talk successfully to a RSTS/E system at one time.
I've never managed to get DAP under Linux to talk with an RSX node...
And I don't think you can subset it much. Depending on the remote machine, different parts will be exercised. But I guess things like indexing file access could be left out. But it's still rather more complex than anything I've seen under Unix. But possibly various remote db protocols would be similar.
File transfer and file access in DAP is the same thing, I believe. Or maybe you mean this in some way I'm missing.
No, transfering a whole file is a single stream of stuff; reading individual records is a more complex handshake. And apart from that, things get significantly simpler if you only support Sequential files. Simpler still if you limit it to just two cases: fixed:512, and stream.

paul

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Matt Thomas
2015-05-29 22:13:32 UTC
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No, transfering a whole file is a single stream of stuff; reading individual records is a more complex handshake. And apart from that, things get significantly simpler if you only support Sequential files. Simpler still if you limit it to just two cases: fixed:512, and stream.
Alas, that means most text files on VMS won’t be transferred since they are record based.
Can you get EDT or TPU to emit stream files?

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Kamil Rytarowski
2015-05-29 19:53:54 UTC
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Johnny Billquist
Post by Johnny Billquist
Post by P***@Dell.com
And DECnet nodes exist around the Internet; the “Hobbyist DECnet”
group (“hecnet”) is the main focus of that activity as far as I know.
...and while I'm sure Johnny Billquist can supply more details, and
correct me if I'm wrong, DECnet on NetBSD seems to me to be an active
component of the hecnet environment.
Nope. NetBSD do not run DECnet. I run a bridge program, which I
initially developed on NetBSD, but it runs on pretty much anything.
I also hack NetBSD/VAX on and off, but it's becoming more and more "off"
with every new development within NetBSD. But that's a different story.
Oh, and DECnet on Linux is not so great either, and I believe it has
been dropped from the main tree.
But if anyone wants to try and get NetBSD to talk DECnet, Paul and me
can certainly help in many ways.
I expressed my concerns regarding DECNet removal to Ryota in a private mail.
I regret that I don't have enough resources to keep this code in the repos.

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Gert Doering
2015-05-29 10:49:18 UTC
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Hi,
Because of these trends, I've been thinking for a while now that maybe
it's getting to be time to fork. That would allow having one project
that intends to stay current, with all the attendant requirements,
which probably mostly doesn't make sense on vintage hardware; and
another project that explicitly abandons most or all of that and
instead concentrates on being the best possible traditional multiuser
or workstation Unix, which does make sense on vintage hardware that
was designed for (or could be adapted to) those roles, and which also
makes sense on newer hardware to the extent it's consistent with the
traditional role.
I would argue that this has happened already - FreeBSD and NetBSD are
the results... at least from the outside, this is how it looks like,
with FreeBSD focusing on few platforms but modernizing itself quite
a bit (kernel preempting, zfs, ...) and NetBSD focusing on "it runs
everywhere".

I'm not sure the BSD worlds needs yet another fork.

Now, speaking as application developer: I'd hate to see yet another BSD
fork that I have to test OpenVPN on regularily, to see whether "we" or
"they" broke something and system-specific parts need to be adjusted...
(right now, we build and test on FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, and
various versions of those - sufficiently subtly different that there
has to be system-specific code for ifconfig/route handling...)

gert
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Gert Doering
2015-05-30 20:45:46 UTC
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Hi,
Post by Gert Doering
I would argue that this has happened already - FreeBSD and NetBSD are
the results... at least from the outside, this is how it looks like,
with FreeBSD focusing on few platforms but modernizing itself quite
a bit (kernel preempting, zfs, ...) and NetBSD focusing on "it runs
everywhere".
Yes, see, this is the problem. "It runs everywhere" now means "it is
an OS for junkyard machines". That was never the intent when that was
NetBSD's market positioning, 15+ years ago. Nor is it the reality now.
This is not what I said "for junkyard machines". It does run on amd64
as well, after all :-)

But you can't really argue the point that priorities are quite different
here - "focused on portability, really good cross-build system, etc."
vs. "newest features and maximum efficiency on modern hardware".

[..]
Post by Gert Doering
Now, speaking as application developer: I'd hate to see yet another BSD
fork that I have to test OpenVPN on regularily, to see whether "we" or
"they" broke something and system-specific parts need to be adjusted...
(right now, we build and test on FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, and
various versions of those - sufficiently subtly different that there
has to be system-specific code for ifconfig/route handling...)
Dragonfly? What about all the OpenBSD offshoots?
From an API point of view, Dragonfly seems to be very close to FreeBSD
(all our code has #if defined(TARGET_FREEBSD) || defined(TARGET_DRAGONFLY),
though I've never personally tested Dragonfly) - and until someone shows
up and asks us about supporting yet another OpenBSD offshot, I'm not going
to care.

But indeed, there are already way too many BSD forks out there to even
try to build and test on all of them regularily.

gert
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u***@aetey.se
2015-06-04 11:06:04 UTC
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I thought Aleksej was joking...
I was indeed wondering whether this was intentional trolling.
:)
What happened to the original roff? I mean, groff is just a gnu replacement
for roff. Maybe switch back to the original?
http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/doctools.html

I guess this is not too different from the original and also usable
in a modern environment with UTF-8.

/R


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Gerard Lally
2015-05-29 19:15:28 UTC
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Because of these trends, I've been thinking for a while now that maybe
it's getting to be time to fork.
Hello, David!
I started using NetBSD because of its small base system disk and memory
footprint, focus on security, support for many machine architectures,
ability to scale well to large SMP machines, support for a wide range
of deployments from embedded to server to desktop (it's a big time
savings to only have to learn and remember how to do something on one
OS instead of many), and genteel user and developer community. I value
all of these things. (Some benefits I came to appreciate later were its
relatively long support for a release and its package management system,
pkgsrc (writing a package once and having it work on all platforms I use
is a big win).)
[...]

I sometimes think developers get so close they can't see the wood for
the trees. They see all the flaws but fail to see the overall picture.

As someone who struggles to understand code I am happily oblivious of
NetBSD's flaws. What I can say, however, is that using NetBSD is so much
more pleasant than using any of the modern Linux distributions, with the
honourable exception of Crux and Slackware. I tried the latest Debian
and CentOS recently and I wanted to throw up. Talk about over-engineering,
deliberate obfuscation and condescension!

It would be a tragedy of immense proportions to see NetBSD's small
developer pool split up to pursue their own interests in yet another
BSD fork. They have put together a first-rate, unequalled operating
system that really is a pleasure to use. I for one didn't need marketing
in order to find NetBSD; the sheer stupidity of other open-source
operating systems was enough to drive me here. Why the need for
marketing? We are intelligent enough to discover NetBSD for ourselves
without marketing. If it does what we want then we stay with it. Simple.

Is it really worth it putting the future of the project at risk over
these small quarrels that pop up every now and again? Perhaps Ryota
Ozaki could quantify the cost of maintaining this code? If it appears
too costly then should we really go all out to maintain it, given what
Ryota is offering in its stead - a multiprocessor-friendly network stack?
Surely the pros have to be weighed up here, as well as the cons?

Just my tuppence worth. NetBSD is to my mind nearly perfect. Adding a
modern network stack, a modern filesystem and perhaps some MAC
implementation (or do we already have that?) would make it unequalled.
If we need to sacrifice some code along the way shouldn't we be prepared
to do so? People will naturally gravitate towards excellence if it is
provided, no marketing required. Let's keep the developer pool together,
and let's not get all worked up over code if Ryota feels a multiprocessor
network stack can't be easily achieved while it's in place. The pursuit
of excellence is not always immediately rewarding, and some people stand
to lose out for the greater good. That's life. No need for drama; let's
make a mature decision about this and be grateful we still have NetBSD
to work and play with, because, for me at least, 95% of the alternatives
are rapidly heading for the gutter.
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Frank Wille
2015-06-21 14:05:01 UTC
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On Thu, 28 May 2015 17:30:24 +0900
Maybe we can wait for a few days to give more potential users the chance
to read these messages on the port-amiga list?
Sure. I was a bit eager.
Ok, I was offered two A2060 ArcNet cards for testing, but both of my
testing machines (an Amiga 3000 and 4000) developed some stability problems
due to their age, and I don't know when they will get fixed.

So I cannot promise to do any tests during the following weeks.

Is there anybody else with the capability to test ArcNet?
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Frank Wille

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Michael van Elst
2015-06-21 15:22:19 UTC
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Post by Frank Wille
Ok, I was offered two A2060 ArcNet cards for testing, but both of my
testing machines (an Amiga 3000 and 4000) developed some stability problems
due to their age, and I don't know when they will get fixed.
So I cannot promise to do any tests during the following weeks.
Is there anybody else with the capability to test ArcNet?
I've got a single working Amiga with ArcNet.
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John Klos
2015-07-30 09:00:41 UTC
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Hi,
Post by Frank Wille
Ok, I was offered two A2060 ArcNet cards for testing, but both of my
testing machines (an Amiga 3000 and 4000) developed some stability problems
due to their age, and I don't know when they will get fixed.
So I cannot promise to do any tests during the following weeks.
Is there anybody else with the capability to test ArcNet?
I am now in a position to test (and I might get access to some other
modern ARCNET equipment soon), but I don't have any Amiga ARCNET cards.
Does anyone in the US have some cards they'd like to loan?

John

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Frank Wille
2015-07-30 10:48:46 UTC
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On Thu, 30 Jul 2015 09:00:41 +0000 (UTC)
Post by John Klos
Post by Frank Wille
Is there anybody else with the capability to test ArcNet?
I am now in a position to test (and I might get access to some other
modern ARCNET equipment soon), but I don't have any Amiga ARCNET cards.
Does anyone in the US have some cards they'd like to loan?
My current status is that the A4000 is running again (in AGA), after I
removed the graphics card. The A3000 still needs a rework of the PSU.

I didn't gave up yet. ;)
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